Tucker Carlson: Alright, watch this interview and ask yourself: why is this not on the front page of every paper? Why is this not on the lips of every European and every American? Because it’s entirely real. Here’s the interview.
Mr. Karaganov, thank you very much for joining us. How do you believe this war will end?
Sergei Karaganov: This war could and should be ended. But it will be finally finished only when Russia achieves the total defeat of Europe—hopefully without eliminating Europe. We are fighting not Ukraine, not Zelensky and the like. We are fighting again the Europe, which has been the source of all ills and all evil in the history of humanity, of two world wars. The Europeans have invaded us several times. The last time it was openly in ’41–’45, when 90%, 95% of European countries came here under the banners of Hitler.
Now, unbelievably, after all their defeats, they haven’t learned the lesson. They are still pushing for a big war. I think the reason is obviously the total failure of the European elites.
So when we talk about the end of this war, it’s not about doing away with the war in Ukraine only, but with the source of this war—and that is the evil Europe, which, by the way, sucked the United States several times into war, and which has been the source of the worst things in the history of humanity, including, of course, world wars, racism, colonialism, and many other bad things.
Now: they have been the main source of the post-human values in the Judeo-Christian world. They have been exporting, I mean, they partly polluted the United States, so now we are fighting that. They tried to pollute us with them. I’m not speaking about all of Europe. There are many decent people and even good countries there. But the question is that Europe is returning back to where it used to be during the last 500 years. And that is the source of all evil in the history of humanity.
Tucker Carlson: So what does it look like to defeat Europe? You said the war can’t end until Russia defeats Europe. What does that mean?
Sergei Karaganov: For the time being, we are thinking about a negotiated deal, which has been offered by President Trump in good faith. But again, until the will of European elites is to continue confrontation for the sake of saving themselves or covering up for the old mistakes they have done, that war will not stop.
So, I’m relatively skeptical as to the short-term possibilities of a negotiated deal. However, of course, if we achieve something along the road and fewer people will start to be killed, well, the opportunity should be used.
But I’m pretty sure that their problem is much deeper. And it is not Ukraine, it is not Zelensky, or whomever. It is that Europe is again returning to its worst. And that is the source of all evil in the history of humanity.
Tucker Carlson: Why do you think… I mean, from an American perspective, it’s very obvious that European leaders are focused on Russia—in the big countries, Germany, France, Great Britain. The leadership of all three countries is focused on Russia as the threat. Why do you think that is?
Sergei Karaganov: No, it is very simple. I mean, I’m a founder of the Institute of Europe in Russia and I used to be a Europhile 40 years ago. And then I learned them better and I became highly skeptical. They are complete failures on all counts—moral, political, economic, et cetera. Europe is going down. Also, they are unable now to exploit the world and to suck the rent from the world, which they had been getting due to their military preponderance over the last 500 years. And that was stopped in the ’60s and ’70s. And they got into a deep crisis. But at that time, for all kinds of reasons, the Soviet Union collapsed. And they believed that their golden age would continue.
But now they understand that this golden age is finished. And they are desperate. They understand that they could not live on others’ money. Also, they start to understand that they could not live on the cushion of U.S. protection. Because the U.S. is tired of them and they don’t need it anymore. So there’s a total desperation of this layer of globalists, so-called “liberal” European elites. Also, there is, by the way, a process of anti-meritocracy. I mean, never in the history of Europe have we had such a low level of intellectual capacity in the leadership of most European countries—not all, but almost.
Tucker Carlson: So Europe is basically out of gas, it’s out of energy, it’s dying, and so you’re arguing that their leadership sees a defeat of Russia as the only way back?
Sergei Karaganov: Initially, they thought of a possibility of a defeat of Russia, which was a kind of fantastic illusion, but still some people, because of their intellectual incapacity, were talking about that. What is defeat of Russia? If Russia ever comes close to a defeat, that would mean that Russia would use nuclear weapons and Europe will be finished physically.
I mean, it’s simply impossible even to think about it. But they have been talking because they need a war to rationalize their stay in power, to rationalize their existence. And it is not about even defeat of Russia now. It is simply keeping on with the failing European Union, with a failing economy, with failing European positions in the world. Everybody in the world now laughs at Europe, which used to be, by the way, one of the core centers of world power, and now it’s a joke.
And of course, I’m not speaking of all Europe. We know that there are decent Europeans, there are smart Europeans. Though in my class, the political class of European thinkers on foreign policy and defense, et cetera, there’s only one or two persons left.
I wouldn’t name them because that would jeopardize them in the eyes of the audience. But nobody else. I do not have any interlocutor, almost any interlocutor in Europe anymore.
Tucker Carlson: When you say everyone knows that the Russian government, if pressed, would use nuclear weapons against Europe—that is my question—do you think that the Europeans understand that?
Sergei Karaganov: The Europeans, because they have been, first of all, intellectually degrading after the 1968 so-called revolution, which killed most of European education, and because of the anti-meritocracy of the modern European democratic system, they do not understand or are unable to understand what is happening fully. And also, they are entertaining what I call strategic parasitism. They believe that war will never come to their territory. They forgot about war and that it’s terrible though they have been the source of most wars in the history of humanity.
But now they are not afraid. So now one of the tasks of Russia, in addition to others, is to bring them to their senses. Hopefully without using nuclear weapons, only with the threat of their use. And I’m criticizing my government for being too prudent and too patient with them.
But sooner or later, if they continue to support this war, sacrificing new millions of Ukrainians and others, the Russian patience and perseverance will grow thin, and we’ll have to punish them severely, hopefully in a limited sense.
Tucker Carlson: It’s interesting that you say their leaders no longer fear nuclear weapons. You would think everyone would fear nuclear weapons given their destructive capacity. Why would any person not fear the threat of a nuclear attack?
Sergei Karaganov: Because, well, let’s put it this way: we believe that they are like us, but they’re not like us. They have had a total degradation of the thinking class and of the ruling class. I mean, when the Chancellor of Germany is talking about recreating the Bundeswehr to be the strongest army in Europe, what does that mean? That means that he dooms his country to elimination.
I have been talking with Europeans through most of my adult life. I stopped doing that in 2013 when there was a meeting of European leaders where I said that if you continue into this, your system, there will be a big war and millions of Ukrainians will die. And nobody dared to look into my eyes—there were 70 or 80 people. Most of them have degraded to the level that they are dangerous idiots. Yes. Most, not all of them, but most of them.
Tucker Carlson: You are quoted in one place saying, “They no longer fear God, therefore they no longer fear war.” How are those two related?
Sergei Karaganov: Absolutely. I mean, they lost—well, not all, again, normal people—but Europe has lost its core moral, political, spiritual core. And now, as you know, most of them have lost the trust in God. And they lost the normal, losing most of their trace of the human. Europe, under this leadership, is becoming anti-European in terms of historical Europe, and anti-human. They have brought Nazism, which was anti-human, etc. Now they have brought to us—you have been infected to a lesser extent—something absolutely anti-human: a loss of respect for the family, for love between men and women, respect for seniors, patriotism, etc. What is then Europe? And, of course, trust in God. What is left? I mean, it is a moral hole. However, of course, I’m not speaking about all Europeans; there are normal people.
But I am not able to talk to them because they are forbidden to talk to us. And if they talk to us, they are then summoned to the police or security services. So I probably still have a lot of friends in Europe, but I do not have any contacts with them because the elites forbid talking to us, because the elites are preparing them for war, at least morally. Though the same elites could not comprehend that if a real big war is unleashed in Europe, and sooner or later this war in Ukraine, which we are waging with Europeans, there will be no Europe.
Thank God we have changed our nuclear doctrine, and recently our president said—he is a very cautious and very polite man—but he said something very important. He said that if Europe continues and if Europe gets into a real direct conflict with Russia, there will be nobody in Europe to talk to. But I hope and I beg and I pray that he or we wouldn’t have to make this decision. But as I’ve said before, Europe is the source of the most evils and returns to its worst times.
Tucker Carlson: Twice in the past, roughly the past year, the Ukrainians have tried to, at least twice, tried to kill your president, President Putin. That’s my read of it. Why do you think they did that? What’s the thinking?
Sergei Karaganov: It is very simple. They’re belligerent. Some people believe that you could solve the problem of Russia by killing our president. Our president—I have only one problem with our president—is that he’s too cautious. Too cautious and he shows too much patience.
I am criticizing him indirectly or sometimes even directly as in our conversation with you. But it’s simply a hatred of people who have lost their minds. Well, the question of doing away with leaders of foreign countries is an American question, as you know.
But they are pumping up hatred towards Russia like mad. I’m partly a historian; I must say that even in Hitler’s Germany, the level of anti-Russian propaganda, Russophobia, was maybe weaker or at least equal to what is happening in Europe.
Tucker Carlson: What would happen if your president were to be assassinated by the Ukrainians or Europe or the United States? What would be the next step?
Sergei Karaganov: Let’s hope that would not happen. But then, of course, that would mean that we will punish—hopefully not the United States—but Europe will be taken away from the map of humanity. It should be pushed away from the geopolitical and geostrategic map, because it is a nuisance, anyway.
I hope it will not be punished in the physical way. Though, I am starting to say that these idiots do not understand anything but physical pain. We have to go up the ladder of escalation. And if they do not stop this senseless war and hostility in and around Ukraine, then we would have to start to attack Europe with conventional weapons, and then the next step will be waves of nuclear strikes. I hope we wouldn’t reach that point because using any weapon is a sin, but using nuclear weapons is a double sin and I don’t want Russia to be that big a sinner.
But if needed, we have to eliminate the European threat to humanity.
Tucker Carlson: How far are we from Russia using nuclear weapons against Europe? Two years?
Sergei Karaganov: Well, one year. Well, first of all, I’ve been calling on my government to escalate earlier. But President Putin is very religious and he is cautious. And we have been climbing up the ladder of escalation, changing our nuclear doctrine and lowering the nuclear threshold, building up our nuclear potential in Europe and elsewhere.
But in the hope that we could stop them before crossing the threshold. As I’ve said, I think that Putin believes that using nuclear weapons—and I believe, by the way—is a sin. But it might be a necessary sin in order to save humanity.
That’s why I have been calling for limited use of nuclear weapons against Europe. Because otherwise the world would drift into a Third World War, towards which Europeans are pushing all of us. I mean, they have already done that twice in history, sucking in the United States. You Americans saved them a couple of times.
Now, we suffered, but then saved them again, but now they’re back with the old game and we have to either punish them or help them to change their minds. I’m not calling for regime change, but if Europeans do not change these elites for more nationally-oriented, for more responsible ones, they are doomed.
And I hate this idea, because culturally I am a European.
Of course, we are moving towards Siberia, we are moving towards the East, we are saying, and sincerely, that we are becoming a Eurasian nation, or returning back to where we belong, to be the Eurasian nation. But the loss of Europe would be a pity.
Tucker Carlson: Before I ask you about what you think Russia should do relative to the rest of the world—become Eurasian rather than European, which it seems to be doing—if there were nuclear strikes from Russia into Europe in the next year or two, as you said there may be, what countries would that include?
Sergei Karaganov: Well, we are online, so I have written that several times: if we strike Poznan, Americans would never respond. Americans would never respond anyway. But I hope the Poles are becoming, by the way, more sensible. They understand that they are playing with fire; they’re trying to retreat from the front lines of this conflict. But my choice would be Britain and Germany.
Tucker Carlson: You’d take out Britain and Germany with nuclear? I beg our Almighty that wouldn’t happen.
Sergei Karaganov: Yes, but Germany should be the first, because Germany is the source of the worst in European history. But I hope again—I have many German friends.
Tucker Carlson: I think you’ve just came back from Beijing. Certainly the ties between Russia and China are much, much deeper than they were four years ago. From an American perspective, the idea of a permanent Russia-China alliance is a threat to our future, it would seem. Is that alliance permanent?
Sergei Karaganov: Well, for the time being, for the foreseeable future, it is a source of great strength both to Russia and to China, and our Chinese friends understand that. But what will happen in 10 to 15 years, we could not know. So plenty of all kinds of futures could happen. But our best solution is to reach a point where four great powers will be working together for defining the rules of behavior in the future world.
These four powers are China, Russia, the United States and India. And that kind of configuration also means that we will and we should, of course, balance the overall preponderance of China vis-à-vis Russia.
At this juncture, China is a fantastic asset; it is not a threat. But just in case, we should create this at least four-country system. Plus, we are building what we call Greater Eurasia.
And that is a system of relationships where China will be balanced by major powers within Eurasia, including India, Persia, Turkey, and Russia, and others. The Chinese, we talked with them sincerely about the necessity to balance them, are starting to understand.
It is hard for them to accept that, but they’re starting to understand that it is in their interest to create a balanced system within Eurasia. But worldwide, the United States should be a key player, because without the United States, we will not succeed in dealing with the unbelievable problems we are facing in the coming years.
Tucker Carlson: Does Russia jeopardize its soul by leaving the West, given that it’s an Orthodox country, its cultural legacy is Western?
Sergei Karaganov: No, we are saving our soul. Of course, some of my compatriots would not agree with me, but let us remind you and me and others that our soul came from the East and from the South. We took Christianity from Palestine. And Orthodoxy shows you the true Christianity because Catholics left at the beginning of the previous millennium. We parted with them, but still we’re, of course, Christians and we’re brothers. We are very much an Islamic country—20% of our population. We also took it from the south.
Then we have a strong Buddhist population. We also took it from the southeast. And Judaism is also here an acknowledged religion. And the political system which we have built over years could have been inherited from the greatest empire of them all—from Chinggis Khan’s empire. But of course, many Russians would disagree now with me, but it is the simple truth.
We are an Asian empire with a very strong European cultural influence, which we love and adore. We would never pass that by. But we are not European, thank God. And we are now starting to acknowledge that.
Because our European journey, which Peter the Great started for certain reasons—because we were backward in technological terms—it’s over. It should have been over 150 years ago. You can say that’s the source of many troubles, including things like world wars, communism, et cetera.
Now we are parting, but hopefully keeping the traits of European cultural heritage which we share with you in our hearts and our minds.
Tucker Carlson: What effect, from your perspective, have Western sanctions had on Russia? Do you believe sanctions have hurt Russia or helped it?
Sergei Karaganov: Oh yes. I have been calling for a confrontation with the West long before we stopped the expansion of NATO, et cetera, long before we decided to act. Now, of course, economically wise, they hurt. But strategically wise, politically wise, culturally wise, they have been a blessing.
With their help, we have invited fire, unfriendly fire, on our own. We have done away with the comprador elites. We have thrown away, without any repressions, the Fifth Column. We are returning back to our Russian culture, our Russian soul; we are becoming Russians.
And the only problem with these sanctions and with this war is that we have to pay for it with the lives of our best men. But other than that, they have been a blessing. And I do not want them to be lifted. Of course, someone should pay… somebody’s money… but Russia, which is threatened, is again a war-fighting nation.
We are a nation of wars, and when we started to be attacked, even indirectly, now directly, then we turn to our best. And that’s why the country is experiencing an unbelievable release.
The only problem is that we’re losing our best men, and that should be stopped.
Tucker Carlson: And that leads to my last question, Mr. Karaganov, which is: you’ve described this as a war, a civilizational war between Russia and Europe. What role does the United States, our administration, our president, play in ending it? What can President Trump do to end the war?
Sergei Karaganov: Americans were very crucial in starting this war because the whole problem started in the early 2000s when the American administration started to peddle, to prop up the Ukranian issue because they were afraid of the possibility of building a continental alliance between Russia and Germany.
So in a way, Americans are also the source, have been a source of the problem. As to the Trump administration offer, I didn’t like the offer which Mr. Trump offered because it doesn’t solve the real problem, and the real problem is European hostility, European aggression.
But for the time being we should use this opportunity, if possible. And then, of course, we all know that President Trump is curtailed in his internal affairs, and also now we see that his offers are diluted by all kinds of efforts from within and by his so-called allies.
But we could try for a while with his offer. Maybe eventually we would end up with the solution of the problem. And that solution, of course, as I’ve said, is Europe.
However, I do not foresee that possibility, unfortunately. So even if we stop this war, we should be prepared, when the war resumes, to do away with the source of this. And that is the hostility of European elites, and their wanting to fuel warfare on the European subcontinent.
But let’s give Trump a chance, although I am not sure whether we could succeed under the circumstances. You know the internal situation in the United States better. And also, by the way, we could not rely, with all our respect to your president, on him.
He has a country behind him which is deeply divided. He has a huge opposition. And he’s also playing full games, so I don’t think… I hope we could arrange something, but we are watching very carefully the fact that the presidential administration has abducted the leader of a big country; we are watching very carefully that American Marines are acting like pirates on high seas, seizing tankers wearing Russian flags, Russian banners. If that continues, we’ll have to go back to robust deterrence.
But we would like to have, if not cordial, but a good relationship with the United States and with the other two great countries in the world. But we’ll see whether he could deliver. I think he wants to deliver, but whether he’s able is a big question.
So we keep our fingers crossed. And let’s be absolutely sure—we hope that he’s sincere, but we do not trust American policies. And to a certain extent, his proposals look like a honey trap, because nothing happens; they continue the war.
I’m talking about those who are not for peace—Zelensky or other people in Europe who are blocking it. And it seems that this war is continuing and maybe the United States in the end does not want to finish this war. So then we’ll have to come back to the solution which I have mentioned several times.
And that is starting to punish our European enemies, with an understanding, hopefully, that the United States would refrain from participating in a nuclear war in Europe.
Tucker Carlson: I think it’s important for American policymakers and the American citizenry to understand the Russian perspective. And I’m grateful that you gave it to us. Mr. Karaganov, thank you very much for your time.
Sergei Karaganov: Thank you. It was a pleasure.
Tucker Carlson: For me, too. Thanks very much